Tuesday, December 9, 2008

Capital Punishment in the Caribbean PT 2- Just pay for it!

In response to a letter posted in regards to the first part of the "Capital Punishment in the Caribbean" series (the article posted on Caribbean Net News on the 8th of Dec 2008 and the letter on the 9th, 2008), I took the liberty of hastening the second part of the material to deal with a third part of the Capital Punishment proponents' debate, which was left unaddressed.

While I admit the first article was extremely lengthy. This follow up, would promise to be as intellectually fulfilling as well as respond to the letter and present the second half of my stance against Capital Punishment, to a tee--and respond to the focal point of the author of the letter--while not being as fustian as the former

I would just like to start off on his letter, first, with what the author stated as his main point; "No one is suggesting that the death penalty is the solution to crime in the Caribbean"....in fact, yes, yes folks were and are trying to make the deterrent argument. And, hence, my rebuttal on that line of argument on the debate, especially in regards to the Caribbean and saying quite loudly, again, that it is not an argument--along with all of the relevant points mentioned. End of story!

The letter stated, quite candidly, Capital Punishment--while persons agree that is no determinant as it being a deterrent to crime-- is not about deterrence, but, about "justice". Sounds allot like president G.W. Bush after 9-11, doesn't it? To this date, the persons wanted and sought for for "justice" have not been caught. While that part of the argument is tangential, of course, I would advance to say, as well, that "justice" in that sense and in the sense of murder and Capital Punishment, is subjective.

This leads me to the crux of my position in this second part essay: since capital punishment, is rooted in the idea of justice to the criminal and for the victim who lost their life, then who's to say that everyone feels that capital punishment, should be a tool for everyone and for every victim's family who where killed?

Are the mouth pieces for capital punishment, speaking on behalf of all persons who were murdered and their families? I happen to think not. Also, are they speaking, especially in the Caribbean, from their King James version of the New Testament? "Christians" following the true teachings of "Jesus Christ"?? I don't think so either. I thought Christ taught us to love and forgive? Perhaps its not the same bible we share and not the same brand of "Christianity" we ascribe to.

Since, folks like me, and, the proponents for the death penalty, like Dudley Sharp- the author of the letter response to my first article- have differing views on what's "just" in the penal codes world wide, perhaps, the proponents would do something that would be palatable to me, as an anti-death penalty proponent and a tax paying citizen who would have to pay for the execution and that is, simply, pay for their killer's execution--if they want added value to the punishment, as capital punishment is. The pro-death folks should; assist with the legal proceedings; administer the lethal injection; throw the switch on ol'e sparky and/or; pull the lever on the gallows. Sounds fair to me. Don't let the tax payers who are not in favour if the death penalty, pay for your justice the way "you think" it should be applied. The pro-death penalty proponents, should start a little kitty in the corner of their homes for death day prep-- sort of like a "swear jar". That sounds reasonable. We, as tax payers, pay for enough "stuff" we have no value for, we should not pay for individual brands of justice for folks who don't have the guts or the ability to kill a murder for themselves and rather, choose to let the tax payers and the system, do it for them.

Here is where we are now with this debate, as Mr. Sharp has just admitted to- 1. the debate is not about what deters crime and 2. it is not about what's "just" as it is subjective-- more so, who knows what exactly the "true" victim would be feeling? After all, they are dead and at the point of the great beyond-- or where ever you believe people go after they pass away! (Condolences to all the victims who have been slaughtered and their families, and in no way am I being flippant about murder)

Just pay for it i say. Every red cent and every hair follicle on that rope and for every volt charged, pay for it. Participate in it, if you wish and if that makes you feel complete. However, don't tell me, ever, that in the Caribbean region in particular, where we seem to create more criminals than we do college graduates, all in a system handed down to use to our disadvantage, that capital punishment--especially in regards to the persons pre-disposed to commit murder and crime; young adult males-- don't deserve justice for being a product of their environment and working within a system which was not created for them primarily.

That is the underlying theme of my argument--we in the Caribbean, have an economic and social system, that works against young adult males. Black America has that issue as well and White America, has just now come to grips with the issues regarding their social and economic frameworks for exclusion which binds many a folk.

Yes. We have a president Obama. Yes. We do have a host of other prominent black men. They are, for the most part, exceptions--and extraordinary exceptions at that--to the rule. They too understand that all don't make it. They too understand, or, at least we hope so, that some will never have the opportunity to see the light of day on their face, let alone have an opportunity to reject it's radiance. This is why president elect Obama and people like him, resonate with the people--he too knows, he too felt and he too knows what to do about some of the systems of injustices, which most are non racial, but, seem to effect race and gender more than anything else.

Regardless of the excuses and exceptions to the rule some of us may have, in the words of the Rev. Jesse Jackson--and I am in no way a supporter of him-- "we have more work to do"...(this was after he had dealt with the situation of the Jena six)

Let's not, especially in the Caribbean, neglect the issues to how do we go about preventing crime and reducing the levels of criminals, fit for actual punishment and quite sadly after the fact--when all sides know, full well and very clearly, it is not a deterrent and never will be a deterrent. We don't save lives that way at all. And, don't waste people's time and money. Point blank!

To say again, we have a problem region wide and black males, in particular, have an issue with ingratiating themselves into the normal society in the western world. Why would I want for anyone, to take their eye off of not working towards rectifying the wrongs they have inflicted upon these urban young males and not have ear to what is the real solution?

And, no, don't cry me a river. And, no, I won't cry a river for myself. I'm a lucky one- at least so far. However, there are those out there, who need someone to articulate and speak for them, who understand the issues, rather than someone who will not. And, at the same time, neglect duties to make for a better life as opposed to making clear way for the destruction and discarding of human life in totality. Such a pitiful waste!

No Sir, readers. Mr. Sharp is wrong on this one. Dead wrong, indeed!

Youri

15 comments:

dudleysharp said...

We disgree. I see no one saying that imposition of the death penalty will solve the crime problem.

Of course the death penalty deters, but, that, most certainly, will not solve the crime problem.

All prospects of a negative outcome deter some. Ther are no exceptions. The most severe criminal sanction, the death penalty, is the least likely sanction to contradict that truism.

It is, however, up to those opposing capital punishment to prove that some are not deterred by the most serious of criminal sanctions. Can they? Of course not.

dudleysharp said...

There have been 16 recent studies, inclusive of their defenses, which find for death penalty deterrence.

For some of the recent 16 deterrence studies, go to:

http://www.cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPDeterrence.htm

US Senate testimony

http://judiciary.senate.gov/testimony.cfm?id=1745&wit_id=4991

dudleysharp said...

One would hope that all criminal sanctions were about providing a just sanction for the crime that was committed. Although you treat such an idea with contempt, justice is a laudable pursuit and one that should not be derided. Indeed, many of us will have a different idea or understanding of justice, but, even in Western Europe, the majority of the population thought that the execution of Saddam Hussein was just.

I did not say nor imply that everyone would find the death penalty just. I and many others do find it just for some crimes, just as with any crime and any sanction. some approve of certain sanctions and some do not. It will always be so.

I find the biblical support for the death penalty to be overwhelming. No Christian disputes the merciful context of the gospel, but that certainly does not do away with the earthly sanction of execution.

Your proposal that those who support the death penalty should pay for the death penalty process and then execute the criminal, is to me, a juvenile one. For example, let's say that you support life without parole for those criminals who rape and murder children. Why don't you, personally, pay for the proceedings and then guard those lifers for 50 years. It is, in a word, absurd.

For those who claim that the death penalty saves lives, it is important. Justice is the foundation for all criminal sanctions, so cannot be tossed aside, as you so wish to do.

Youri_Kemp said...

Hi Dudley,

Yes, we do disagree. The death penalty, does not deter. You assumption that the truism is that negative sancions do deter, is not founded in statistical correlation--as we all know.

As for your sentiment on back tracking on what's "just", the letter you wrote to the Caribbean Net News, more than explans your position and my response to it in that news organization was spot on with what you said explicitly.

Best,

Youri

Youri_Kemp said...

Hi Dudley,

In addition to that, in response to the bible advocating capital punishment. It was never advocated in the new testament or in Jesus's teachings. The new testament, is the basis for Christianity.

There is a difference between the old and new testament based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ--the new testament, is what Christians should ascribe to. At least I hope so!

Best,

Youri

dudleysharp said...

Youri:

Much of the following is in regard to New Testament death penalty support.

Christian Scholars: Support for the Death Penalty
Dudley Sharp, Justice Matters, contact info below

Religious positions in favor of capital punishment are neither necessary not needed to justify that sanction. However, the biblical and theological record is very supportive of the death penalty.

Many of the current religious campaigns against the death penalty reflect a fairly standard anti death penalty message, routed in secular arguments. When they do address religious issues, they often neglect solid theological foundations, choosing, instead, select biblical sound bites which do not impact the solid basis of death penalty support.

The strength of the biblical, theological and traditional support for the death penalty is, partially, revealed, below.

(1) "Capital Punishment: New Testament Teaching", 1998, Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., considered one of the most prominent Roman Catholic theologians of the 20th century. See bottom.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Sacred_Scripture/Sacred_Scripture_014.htm

"There are certain moral norms that have always and everywhere been held by the successors of the Apostles in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Although never formally defined, they are irreversibly binding on the followers of Christ until the end of the world." "Such moral truths are the grave sinfulness of contraception and direct abortion. Such, too, is the Catholic doctrine which defends the imposition of the death penalty."

"Most of the Church's teaching, especially in the moral order, is infallible doctrine because it belongs to what we call her ordinary universal magisterium."

"Equally important is the Pope's (Pius XII) insistence that capital punishment is morally defensible in every age and culture of Christianity." " . . . the Church's teaching on 'the coercive power of legitimate human authority' is based on 'the sources of revelation and traditional doctrine.' It is wrong, therefore 'to say that these sources only contain ideas which are conditioned by historical circumstances.' On the contrary, they have 'a general and abiding validity.' (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 1955, pp 81-2)."

about Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.mariancatechist.com/html/general/stjohnhardon.htm
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/archives.htm
http://www.mariancatechist.com/html/general/fatherhardon.htm
http://www.saintphilomena.com/newpage4.htm
http://credo.stormloader.com/Saints/hardon.htm


(2) "The Death Penalty", by Romano Amerio, a faithful Catholic Vatican insider, scholar, professor at the Academy of Lugano, consultant to the Preparatory Commission of Vatican II, and a peritus (expert theologian) at the Council.
http://www.domid.blogspot.com/2007/05/amerio-on-capital-punishment.html

"Amerio has the great gift of going to the heart of a subject in a few lines and very neatly distinguishes genuine Catholicism from imitations and aberrations." "What makes Amerio's analysis unique is that he restricts himself to official and semi-official pronouncements by popes, cardinals, bishops, episcopal conferences and articles in L'Osservatore Romano, from the time of Pope John XXIII to 1985 when the book was originally written." (1)

titled "Amerio on capital punishment ", Chapter XXVI, 187. The death penalty, from the book Iota Unum, May 25, 2007

About Romano Amerio
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/176565?eng=y
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2006/02/romano-amerio-and-pope-benedict.html
http://www.latin-mass-society.org/2007/romanoamerio.html
http://www.angeluspress.org/oscatalog/item/6700/iota-unum


(3) "Christian Scholars & Saints: Support for the Death Penalty", at
http://www.homicidesurvivors.com/2006/10/12/catholic-and-other-christian-references-support-for-the-death-penalty.aspx


(4) "Capital Punishment: A Catholic Perspective",
by Br. Augustine (Emmanuel Valenza)
http://www.sspx.org/against_the_sound_bites/capital_punishment.htm


(5) "Capital Punishment: The Case for Justice", Prof. J. Budziszewski, First Things, August / September 2004 http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/BudziszewskiPunishment.shtml


(6) Chapter V:The Sanctity of Life, "Principles of Conduct: Aspects of Biblical Ethics" By John Murray
http://books.google.com/books?id=phoqAAaGMpUC&pg=PA107&lpg=PA114&ots=mFvByHqGSy&dq=Murray+%22It+is+the+sanctity+of+human+life+that+underlies+the+sixth+commandment.%22&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&sig=ACfU3U1b0mdM3BfpNSXnhrwFYXaE_9Ij9A


(7) "Capital Punishment: What the Bible Says", Dr. Lloyd R. Bailey, Abingdon Press, 1987. The definitive biblical review of the death penalty.


(8) "Why I Support Capital Punishment", by Andrew Tallman
sections 7-11 biblical review, sections 1-6 secular review
http://andrewtallmanshowarticles.blogspot.com/search?q=Capital+punishment


(9) "The Death Penalty", by Solange Strong Hertz at
http://www.ourworld.compuserve.com/HOMEPAGES/REMNANT/death2.htm


(10) "A Seamless Garment In a Sinful World" by John R. Connery, S. J., America, 7/14/84, p 5-8).


(11) "God’s Justice and Ours" by US Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, First Things, 5/2002
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2022


(12) Forgotten Truths: "Is The Church Against Abortion and The Death Penalty"
by Luiz Sergio Solimeo, Crusade Magazine, p14-16, May/June 2007
http://www.tfp.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=957


(13) "The Purpose of Punishment (in the Catholic tradition)",
by R. Michael Dunningan, J.D., J.C.L., CHRISTIFIDELIS, Vol.21,No.4, sept 14, 2003
http://www.st-joseph-foundation.org/newsletter/lead.php?document=2003/21-4


(14) "MOST CATHOLICS OPPOSE CAPITAL PUNISHMENT?",
KARL KEATING'S E-LETTER, Catholic Answers, March 2, 2004
http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_040302.asp


(15) "THOUGHTS ON THE BISHOPS' MEETING: NOWADAYS, VOTERS IGNORE BISHOPS",
KARL KEATING'S E-LETTER, Catholic Answers,, Nov. 22, 2005
http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_051122.asp

---------

Footnotes:
(1) Books: 'Iota Unum: A Study of Changes in the Catholic Church', by Romano Amerio, Fr Peter Joseph (reviewer)
IOTA UNUM: A Study of Changes in the Catholic Church in the 20th Century
by Romano Amerio (English translation by Fr John Parsons)
(Sarto House, USA, 786 pp)
Reprinted from AD2000 Vol 9 No 8 (September 1996), p. 14
---------------------

70% of Catholics supported the death penalty as of May, 2oo5, Gallup Poll, Moral Values and Beliefs. The May 2-5, 2005 poll also found that 74% of Americans favor the death penalty for murderers, while 23% oppose.

copyright 1999-2008 Dudley Sharp
Permission for distribution of this document, in whole or in part, is approved with proper attribution.

Dudley Sharp, Justice Matters
e-mail sharpjfa@aol.com, 713-622-5491,
Houston, Texas

Mr. Sharp has appeared on ABC, BBC, CBS, CNN, C-SPAN, FOX, NBC, NPR, PBS , VOA and many other TV and radio networks, on such programs as Nightline, The News Hour with Jim Lehrer, The O'Reilly Factor, etc., has been quoted in newspapers throughout the world and is a published author.

A former opponent of capital punishment, he has written and granted interviews about, testified on and debated the subject of the death penalty, extensively and internationally.

Pro death penalty sites

http://homicidesurvivors.com/categories/Dudley%20Sharp%20-%20Justice%20Matters.aspx

www.dpinfo.com
www.cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPinformation.htm
www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/links/dplinks.htm
www.coastda.com/archives.html see Death Penalty
www.lexingtonprosecutor.com/death_penalty_debate.htm
www.prodeathpenalty.com
http://yesdeathpenalty.googlepages.com/home2 (Sweden)
www.wesleylowe.com/cp.html

dudleysharp said...

By just I mean a sanction that folks believe is just and appropriate for the crime committed. That has always been my definition, as it remains.

I have never back tracked on that definition. So, I have no idea what you are speaking of.

Furthermore, of course the 16 studies finding for death penalty deterrence was based upon statistical analysis. That is how they found deterrence.

Have you read the studies?

Again, here are a few:

For some of the recent 16 deterrence studies, go to:

http://www.cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPDeterrence.htm

US Senate testimony

http://judiciary.senate.gov/testimony.cfm?id=1745&wit_id=4991

dudleysharp said...

This is what I wrote on caribbeannet news:

"It is more than enough that the death penalty is a just sanction for the most egregious of crimes.

So, it is curious why you call this back tracking, when I give the same reason for execution on both sites.

http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/letters/letters.php?news_id=12784&start=0&category_id=7

Youri_Kemp said...

Hi Dudley,

Your excerpt; "No one is suggesting that the death penalty is the solution to crime in the Caribbean, or anywhere else."...

and....
"It is more than enough that the death penalty is a just sanction for the most egregious of crimes."
http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/letters/letters.php?news_id=12784&start=0&category_id=7

I think your sentiment is clear on what you feel is "just" and justice.

And, of course I vehemently disagree with that. It is not just and it is not justice, especially in the Caribbean.

Secondly, I would ask you, quite clearly, to state the refference in the New Testament and from Jesus Christ, himself, where he was a proponent of capital punishment.

Not from some book that didn't make it to the New Testament. And, not from a group calling themselves, for example, "Christians for Death Penalty"...

I don't think you can from Jesus in the New Testament Mr. Sharp.

Best,

Youri

dudleysharp said...

It's clear that you didn't read the deterrence, just as you didn't read the Christian references that I sent.

Some of the references deal specificaly with Jesus' words in reference to the death penalty.

Read them.

Then read the deterrence studies.

Then, we'll talk, again, after you have read them.

Or are you going to refuse to read them?

Youri_Kemp said...

Hi Dudley,

I read some of your articles on deterence, and read enough of it to know that the evidence, as you admit, is inconclusive--as it is.

Secondly, I would have to ask you again, to quote in the New Testament the reference it has and Jesus Christ has on capital punishment.

Quote it with direct text and then I would accept your claim. Not some study from a faction of a religious sect, but an actual quote and text from the NT and Jesus Christ, which states, capital punishment under new Christian law is an accepted punishment.

We can end this right here.

Best,

Youri

dudleysharp said...

More upon request. Look at direct quotes and their context.

This recent, clear review by
Andrew Tallman
http://andrewtallmanshowarticles.blogspot.com/2008/04/why-i-support-capital-punishment-part-8.html

"If Jesus elsewhere opposes capital punishment, then He is not only contradicting the Father but even His own words. "

"Typically, (the anti death penalty) view is that the harsh and mean God the Father of the Old Testament established execution, but the loving and kind God the Son of the New Testament abolished it."

"I’m pretty sure such people don’t realize they’re denying the Trinity when they say this."

"The doctrine of the Trinity affirms the eternal unity of all three persons of the Godhead, but such a fundamental disagreement between the Son and the Father would rupture this unity. In fact, if Jesus had contradicted any of the Father’s principles, let alone such a well-established one, that very disagreement would have immediately disproved His claims to be the divine Son."

"This was exactly the heresy the Pharisees were hoping to trap Him into when they brought the woman caught in adultery to Jesus. Even His enemies knew that He absolutely had to affirm capital punishment in order to prove Himself not a false prophet. "

"How truly strange, then, that those who claim to love Him assert that He did exactly what His enemies failed to trick Him into doing! Far from opposing capital punishment, Jesus actually advocated it, as His unity with the Father required."

"Matthew 5:17-18“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.”

"Just a few verses later, He extends the prohibition against murder to hatred and condemns haters to “the hell of fire” in verse 22, which is very strange talk for someone who opposes capital punishment. It’s very hard to dismiss these verses because they occur smack in the middle of the Sermon on the Mount, which is so often mistakenly offered as the repudiation of Old Testament justice."

"Later, Jesus scolds the Pharisees and scribes for teaching leniency toward rebellious children by quoting the Old Testament, “For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.’” (Matthew 15:4)"

"Subsequently, when the Romans come to arrest Jesus, Peter rather ineptly tries to defend Him by killing Malchus, but only succeeds in slicing off his ear. Jesus rebukes him with the warning, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.” Far from advocating pacifism, as this passage is often misused to do, Jesus here teaches Peter that using the sword (for murder) will only get the sword used against him (for execution)."

"Shortly thereafter, Jesus tells Pilate in John 19:11, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above…” This authority to put Jesus to death would be odd if it didn’t entail the general power to execute criminals."

"Finally, when He is dying of crucifixion, Jesus accepts the repentance of the thief on the cross, who says to his reviling companion, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds….” (Luke 23:40-41)"

"Had Jesus disagreed with this statement, responding to it with the promise of eternal salvation was a rather obtuse way to express the correction."

"Beyond all this evidence that Jesus affirms the consistent Biblical principle of capital punishment, there is yet one more vital concept to grasp. Christians believe that Christ died on the cross to pay for the sins of us all."

"Although His sinlessness merited eternal life, He endured the death we deserved to extend that gift to us. As Prof. Michael Pakaluk so perfectly expressed the point, “If no crime deserves the death penalty, then it is hard to see why it was fitting that Christ be put to death for our sins….” If we didn’t deserve the death penalty ourselves, then why would Christ need to suffer it on our behalf in order to satisfy the justice of God? Denying the death penalty directly assaults the justice of the Father, Who required His own Son to pay precisely that price in our stead."

"What about the rest of the New Testament?"

"Since both Jesus’s teaching and His death affirm the capital punishment, it should come as no surprise that the rest of the New Testament reinforces this view."

"When confronting Governor Festus, Paul says in Acts 25:11, “If I am a wrongdoer, and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of these things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. He both affirms capital statutes and accepts them as binding on him if he has broken one."

"Later, in the New Testament’s most famous passage on the nature of government, Paul explains, “But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for [the government] does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.” (Romans 13:4)"

"Finally, the same Bible which begins in Genesis 9:6 with the establishment of capital punishment, then carries the theme consistently throughout the text, and ends by reiterating it in Revelation 13:10, “If any one is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if any one kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.”

"Literally from beginning to end, the Bible teaches that capital punishment is authorized and required by God."
------------
(1) from no. 2 at http://homicidesurvivors.com/2006/10/12/catholic-and-other-christian-references-support-for-the-death-penalty.aspx

dudleysharp said...

another and many more upon request


Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ, 10/7/2000, from no. 2 at http://homicidesurvivors.com/2006/10/12/catholic-and-other-christian-references-support-for-the-death-penalty.aspx

"At no point, however, does Jesus deny that the State has authority to exact capital punishment."

"In his debates with the Pharisees, Jesus cites with approval the apparently harsh commandment, He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die (Mt 15:4; Mk 7:10, referring to Ex 21:17; cf. Lev 20:9). "

"When Pilate calls attention to his authority to crucify him, Jesus points out that Pilate's power comes to him from above-that is to say, from God (Jn 19:1 l).Jesus commends the good thief on the cross next to him, who has admitted that he and his fellow thief are receiving the due reward of their deeds (Lk 23:41). "

"Paul repeatedly refers to the connection between sin and death. He writes to the Romans with an apparent reference to the death penalty, that the magistrate who holds authority does not bear the sword in vain; for he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer (Rom 13:4). No passage in the New Testament disapproves of the death penalty."

"Turning to Christian tradition, we may note that the Fathers and Doctors of the Church (all with a New Testament perspective) are virtually unanimous in their support for capital punishment, even though some of them such as St. Ambrose exhort members of the clergy not to pronounce capital sentences or serve as executioners."

"The Roman Catechism, issued in 1566, three years after the end of the Council of Trent, taught that the power of life and death had been entrusted by God to civil authorities and that the use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment. "

"Summarizing the verdict of Scripture and tradition, we can glean some settled points of doctrine. It is agreed that crime deserves punishment in this life and not only in the next. In addition, it is agreed that the State has authority to administer appropriate punishment to those judged guilty of crimes and that this punishment may, in serious cases, include the sentence of death."

"The Catholic magisterium does not, and never has, advocated unqualified abolition of the death penalty. I know of no official statement from popes or bishops, whether in the past or in the present, that denies the right of the State to execute offenders at least in certain extreme cases. The United States bishops, in their majority statement on capital punishment, conceded that Catholic teaching has accepted the principle that the state has the right to take the life of a person guilty of an extremely serious crime. Cardinal Bernardin, in his famous speech on the Consistent Ethic of Life here at Fordham in 1983, stated his concurrence with the classical position that the State has the right to inflict capital punishment."

"Pope John Paul II spoke for the whole Catholic tradition when he proclaimed, in Evangelium Vitae, that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral (EV 57). But he wisely included in that statement the word innocent. He has never said that every criminal has a right to live nor has he denied that the State has the right in some cases to execute the guilty. "

Youri_Kemp said...

Hi Dudley,

I am so enjoying this brain jog, until you would not imagine!

Thank you before reading how I take apart your position..lol!

To start off;
Jesus came to bring anew. He came for us to have life more abundantly. A new way of thinking and spiritual being for living a life for God. The old testamnent and the new testament, consistently contradict themselves.

No old testament in that. In fact, he was executed because he bucked the trend in the old testament. Read his story.

(Matthew 15:4)-- is speaking of "death" and being put to death, in regards to the spiritual nature and condemnation for going against your parents and God's sacred covenant. No one ever condemned a man or woman, for being put to 'literal' death for disobeying your father or mother. However, if you read the context in which the rest of the bible speasks about the term, honouring your father and your mother, it is in regards to honouring such a covenant and your days will be long for doing so. Not capital punishment.

Matthew 5:17-18-- now you have something here. However, he did not come to do away with the laws of the old prophets, but to make them better. Better, in itself, is not subjective to or exclusive of capital punishment. Also, it does not mean, in its significance, obeyance to a lawful code which may or may not be instituted by the state for the glory of God.

Also, doing away with the old code and him expressing that what was handed down from the father, would have been contradictory to what God's prophets through his divine nature expressed. While fundamentally, God's divine word on earth was super-endorsed. However, we have to remember in the bible itself that the men who wrote it and transcribed it and editted it, for years over years, were nothing more than men with free will to express what they thought were the salient points.

This is the crucial lesson of the bible. And, that is, trust in God and not in man. Lean to him and trust in him and NOT the word of man.

Also, and most importantly, if Jesus were to have come with a mandate to change people's hearts by force, he would have been crucified much earlier and he would have gone against one of God's first gifts and something Jesus continually asks us to work with--OUR FREE WILL.

And, as for free will, it signifies that nothing, NOTHING, is constant or overall justified as a total and end all solution--as capital punishment, and you, suggest. We can change it, implement new strategies that work better than what we have nor or before--we can also go much worse. And, as inconclusive as the deterence issues on the Death penalty is, we have no sound, tangible evidence which suggests it as an end all solution to crime or it being just in Jesus's eye's and totally endorses by God the father above, through Jesus Christ our savior.

Also, the extension to which you speak about, in verse 22, is not advocating capital punishment. It is in reference to the spiritual realm. Something you would have to come to grips with, when you are going to reference NT scriptures.

John 19:11--of course Christ, unless God allows. However, God allows allot of things--sin and the devil, included. This does not mean that he endorses it or asks us to endorse it, in regards to our approach to daily living, either.

This is why I said, I am not a proponent of the death penalty, as it is a brand of justice, to which it suits a particular sect of people--like yourself. Since it does have particular tatse preferences, and since we all pay the same equal amount of taxes, then, you pay for the execution solely and all that comes with; the appeals; materials; death warrant and; legal fees.

(Luke 23:40-41)--you have to unwrap the text of the NT and Jesus's coded words. He slips in and out of explanations on the real world and the spiritual one, afterwards. Parables my friend Sharpe. Parables!

Jesus always said to give to Ceasar what is his. However, he never exclaims that these issues, are what he subscribes to on earth--or else, he would have lived a ripe old age and no one would have been upset with him.

Also, "receiving what is his just rewards" is not inclusive of Jesus, accepting what he did was wrong in God's eyes. He WILL be receiving his rewards for his deeds on earth in heaven. I know so and believe that he did.

Also, Jesus was not "put to death" or "condemned" he was "asked to die" for our sins here on earth, by God our father. Crucial understanding of the intent of his purpose on earth. As you would recall, the earth shook when he gave up his spirit. He had to, but no one was pleased with the outcome of what transpired and the hatred in people's heart for him at the time.

Acts 25:11---Paul is here accepting the fact that in some jurisdictions, unfortunately, capital punishment is observed. He understands that he, like so many others, have no control over what the state reserves as correct punishment. This is not an endorsement, but stating the fact and the fact is he can do nothing about it, if it had come to pass.

(Romans 13:4)---Paul is spot on here. Goverment and rulership, is here for us to be subjected to. It is a divine creation for this earthly realm. That does not mean he endorsed capital punishment as a tool for the government to use as a corrective measure. Also, this does not mean that capital punishment, is constant or should be constant and Jesus Christ, endorsed that constant. Also, it does not mean that he endorses it as an effective tool directly--he acknowledges its presence, but never said that it was, or, at that time, government was acting in the best interest of the people.

You get the type of government you deserve. And, I don't feel, any country, deserves the type of government that endorses capital punishment as a solution; deterent or; tool of government social management.

It's outdated and useless.

Best,

Youri

Youri_Kemp said...

Hi Dudley,

(Rom 13:4) and "No passage in the New Testament disapproves of the death penalty"...and I would say also that no passage endorses it totally, either!

I don't think you appreciate Jesus's positon on staying out of the state's way. The state has the responsibility, and he accepted that. Jesus never critisized anything the state did. From taxes, to sanitation, to criminal punishment if the person was guilty.

Best,

Youri